Spirit of Prophecy and Godhead/Trinity (For Sdas only)

[Nath]

Dear Thomas,

I would like to examine the views of sister White on the materialistic nature of God. So please think of sending me a copy of your expected book. I smell an ushering of a serious debate on this topic with the publication of your book if it presents proof of a materialistic God as it contradicts presently held view of the omnipresence of God. God does not have to move from place to place as we humans with a physical body as He is omnipresent, in time and place. This is a simple knowledge any one can understand within or without the Bible. The only argument in favor of materialistic view is the omnipotence of God. But this can be used even to prove the spiritualistic view as well. That is God can be anything, as is proved in the person of Christ. So the validity of the discussion whether God is spiritualistic or materialistic is questionable, if we accept the omnipresence and omnipotence of God.

[Twoedged]

Hi Thomas Your quote

But so far you have insisted on your own principles, that Tradition is a source of truth and that the Bible must be interpreted according to Tradition.

Thomas. You have now misrepresented me. I have never said that the Bible must be interpreted according to tradition. Because you have an aversion to the word “Trinity” which simply means TRIO, it seems like you are throwing away the baby with the bathwater Tht is impression I get. You have to understand that because you are reluctant to express your beliefs that people have to try to work out what exactly you are trying to say on this forum. But is it up to you whether or not you state your beliefs on this forum. Noby can force you to do so.

There are of course a number of concepts of the Trinity found within Christianity whether Catholic or Protestant and I have never expressed agreement with them all. The majority of non Catholic Christians or Protestants are not really protestant church at all. At best, you can call them fallen protestant churches. They are no longer protesting against Rome and are drinking of her wine or false doctrine. Some have similar beliefs to the Catholic trinity.

My beliefs on the Godhead are not according to Catholic teaching. The SDA’s beliefs of the Godhead are different to the Catholic trinity doctrine.

But you reveal your non-Scriptural, Trinitarian assumptions in claiming that God 'has on numerous occasions in scripture assumed a form.' The assumption of form implies the change from no form at all to a specific form on 'numerous occasions.' This is consistent with the Trinitarian doctrine of hypostasis, the assumption of a form by a being essentially without form. Please give Scriptural evidence for this Trinitarian assumption.

It is not any Trinitarian assumption but Biblical fact that spirits are depicted as having shape.

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Either the ancient of Days (The Father) has a shape or has assumed a shape. Scripture as we have seen tells us that “God is a Spirit. Angels are spirits yet they are depicted as having shape.

Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

Here we have the Lord sitting. If He has no form or shape, how can He be seen sitting?
Here also the seraphim angels, who are spirits having six wings, faces, and feet.
Thomas. Perhaps you would like to explain this.

Ellen White played a prophetic role in confirming the eternal deity of Jesus and the Three-
Person Godhead. As early as 1878, she referred to Jesus as the “eternal Son of God.”16 In
The Desire of Ages, she wrote, “[Christ] announced Himself to be the self-existent One”
and “In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived.”17

In Desire of Ages she wrote. in 1898


Jesus declared, "I am the resurrection, and the life." In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. "He that hath the Son hath life." The divinity of Christ is the believer's assurance of eternal life.--The Desire of Ages, p. 530 (1898) {Ev 616.2}

He was equal with God, infinite and omnipotent. . . . He is the eternal, self-existent Son.--Manuscript 101, 1897. {Ev 615.3}

Daniel accepted the worship of Nebuchadnezzar. But verse 30 shows that he carefully avoided giving the impression that he had supernatural powers.

I find no evidence in scripture that Daniel was accepting of the pagan king’s worship. Just because he did not rebuke the king does not mean that he accepted the worship. Conversion often takes time and often we must be patient with the unconverted until they have had enough opportunity to learn the truth.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

If God can wink at our ignorance, possible Daniel ignoring the kings worship winked at the ignorance of this pagan king, who really did not know any better at that time in his life.

Christ being God did however accept worship from devout Jews and from angels.

Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. (Matthew 2:2)

And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. (Matthew 2:11)

And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. (Matthew 8:2)

While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. (Matthew 9:18)

Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God. (Matthew 14:33)

Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. (Matthew 15:25)

Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. (Matthew 20:20)

And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. (Matthew 28:9)

And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. (Matthew 28:17)

And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: (Luke 24:52)

And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. (John 9:38)


And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. (Hebrews 1:6)

The term eternal generation is a contradiction in itself. If something has been generated then it cannot be eternal.
Jesus existed from eternity past so therefore He is God.

Compare

Psa 93:1 The LORD (Jehovah) reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD (Jehovah) is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.
Psa 93:2 Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.


With
Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Christ Jehovah has existed from eternity past.

The Holy Spirit is also an Eternal Deity.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

"Baptized into the threefold name . . at the very entrance of their Christian life . . the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, powers infinite and omniscient, receive those who truly enter into covenant relation with God. They are present at every baptism."-6 Bible Commentary, 1075.

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God." Manuscript 20, 1906.



The eternal Godhead-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost-is involved in the action required to make assurance to the human agent."-Upward Look, 148.

Twoedged

[Guest]

Dear Nath,
My book has not yet been accepted by a publisher, but is presently under review. When it does appear, remind me to get a copy to you.
I would disagree with you that the omnipotence of God is an argument in favour of the materialistic view. Omnipotence seems irrelevant to evidence in either direction. The basic arguments for a materialistic theology are the Biblical expressions that attribute physical characteristics to God, such as hands, face, back parts, hair, etc. This argument can be answered only by appeal to philosophical arguments (with specific assumptions) or by appeal to the argument that the Bible uses anthropomorphic terms for God which should not be interpreted literally.
Materialist theology sees the role of the Holy Spirit, which does not have form, to be vital in establishing omnipresence. From a theological point of view, that is entirely adequate. Therefore, materialist theology does not fail on the point of omnipresence.
The materialist argument against spiritualist theology on the issue of omnipresence is an easy one. If God is immaterial, He cannot be present even in one place, to say nothing of every place. Immateriality prevents presence altogether by very definition.

[Guest]

Dear Twoedged:
You note:
"Thomas. You have now misrepresented me. I have never said that the Bible must be interpreted according to tradition."

My apologies. I must have jumped to conclusions.

You note:
"Because you have an aversion to the word “Trinity” which simply means TRIO, it seems like you are throwing away the baby with the bathwater Tht is impression I get."

It might be of value to revise your impression. I have no aversion to the word Trinity. I reject it because it is not in the Bible. It is only in tradition. To accept it is to accept tradition as a source of doctrine, and therefore I cannot accept it.

It does not simply mean trio. It is loaded with centuries of theological baggage.

You note:
"You have to understand that because you are reluctant to express your beliefs that people have to try to work out what exactly you are trying to say on this forum. But is it up to you whether or not you state your beliefs on this forum. Noby can force you to do so."

I have been crystal clear on this forum. I reject any concept or term in regard to the doctrine of God that is not based on the Bible. That should not be difficult to figure out.

You note:
"There are of course a number of concepts of the Trinity found within Christianity whether Catholic or Protestant and I have never expressed agreement with them all. The majority of non Catholic Christians or Protestants are not really protestant church at all. At best, you can call them fallen protestant churches. They are no longer protesting against Rome and are drinking of her wine or false doctrine. Some have similar beliefs to the Catholic trinity."

The various Trinity doctrines are clearly and carefully formulated, excruciatingly so. It is an easy matter to refer to which one you adhere to.

You note:
"My beliefs on the Godhead are not according to Catholic teaching. The SDA’s beliefs of the Godhead are different to the Catholic trinity doctrine."

At last we are getting somewhere. Which Trinity doctrine do you accept? Which one are you trying to foster here? How does the SDA belief, apparently that of the current Fundamental, differ from the "Catholic trinity doctrine?"

We have not isolated any difference in our theology. We have only determined that I reject the term Trinity and you insist on it. We also differ in hermeneutical and exegetical principles. You insist that the term worship must always indicate acknowledgement of divinity. I insist that there are some cases in which the term worship does not imply an acknowledgement of divinity. We have not disagreed on the divinity of Christ itself, but only on the evidence.

[Twoedged]

Hi Thomas
Your quote

You note:
"My beliefs on the Godhead are not according to Catholic teaching. The SDA’s beliefs of the Godhead are different to the Catholic trinity doctrine."

At last we are getting somewhere. Which Trinity doctrine do you accept? Which one are you trying to foster here?

We have not isolated any difference in our theology. We have only determined that I reject the term Trinity and you insist on it.

Although you state that there are no difference in our theology, the last few weeks of discussion seem to indicate that we have very little agreement at all. I accept your right to disagree with any or all that I believe. That is your right. For two people to have no difference in theology we might expect some agreement; but I have yet to see any.

I do not insist on the word Trinity but as I have said several times before I prefer the term Godhead which is found both in the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. The context in which I use the word Trinity is in the concept of a TRIO. There is a Biblical Divine TRIO which can be identified as a Godhead.

How does the SDA belief, apparently that of the current Fundamental, differ from the "Catholic trinity doctrine?"

Even the Catholic trinity doctrine has various expressions at various times, however these are the basic fundamentals of it as I can ascertain.Please note that these are not my beliefs.

CHARACTERISTICS OF THE CATHOLIC TRINITY

(1) God is One yet at the same time He is three (not eternally separate and distinct) Persons.

(2) The One means one nature, essence, or being, which or who is essentially the Father.

(3) God and His nature are synonymous.

(4) The Oneness is not generic based on likeness, but rather is numeric based on sameness.

(5) “Three persons” does not mean “persons” as we normally understand the word, but means three expressions, extensions, manifestations, or modes otherwise theologically called hypostases.

(6) The Person of the Son is begotten from the Father by an eternal generation, a never ending process. (Eternal generation is a contradiction in itself for if one is generated then he cannot be eternal).

(7) The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son by a mediate procession. He is not an eternally distinct person with his own consciousness and will.

(8) The Three Persons are distinct from each other by virtue of the processes of filiation and spiration, which however, does not make them separate Entities with independent self consciousness and will.

Please note again that I do not agree with the above doctrine of the Catholic church.

Twoedged.

[Twoedged]

Hi Thomas.
Continuing my previous post.

Godhead is the word used in the New Testament and when comparing scripture with scripture describes the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The word for God in the Old Testament Hebrew is Elohiym. It means “God” in the plural. This is clearly seen in the following Scriptures:

Gen. 1:26: “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.”
Gen. 11:7: “Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.”
Isaiah 6:8: “Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?”

Clearly these verses show that the Godhead consists of more than one divine Being. There is a collective unity in the Godhead. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit work together in unity and harmony.

THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT ARE EACH ETERNAL and separate entities though with a relationship to each other of unity.

THE FATHER is God and eternal. I’m sure no one here will dispute this.

THE SON: is God and eternal
Micah 5:2: “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.”

Matthew 1:23: “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”

This is the reward of all who follow Christ. Jehovah Emmanuel --He "in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge," in whom dwells "all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:3, 9 {7ABC 439}

So Christ was to come in "the body of our humiliation" (Phil. 3:21, R. V.), "in the likeness of men." In the eyes of the world He possessed no beauty that they should desire Him; yet He was the incarnate God, the light of heaven and earth. His glory was veiled, His greatness and majesty were hidden, that He might draw near to sorrowful, tempted men. {DA 23.2}

What opposites meet and are revealed in the person of Christ! The mighty God, yet a helpless child! The Creator of all the world, yet, in a world of His creating, often hungry and weary, and without a place to lay His head! The Son of man, yet infinitely higher than the angels! Equal with the Father, yet His divinity clothed with humanity, standing at the head of the fallen race, that human beings might be placed on vantage-ground!

--The Signs of the Times, April 26, 1905.
He was equal with God, infinite and omnipotent. . . . He is the eternal, self-existent Son.--Manuscript 101, 1897. {Ev 615.3}

In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. "He that hath the Son hath life" (1 John 5:12). The divinity of Christ is the believer's assurance of eternal life. "He that believeth in me," said Jesus, "though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die." . . . Christ here looks forward to the time of His second coming (The Desire of Ages, p. 530).

These Scriptures and statements show us that Jesus is God. Being God Jesus is Eternal. If He is eternal, then He has no beginning, no end.

THE HOLY SPIRIT: is God and Eternal

Acts 5:3,4: “But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?” ”Why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.”

Hebrews 9:14: “How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?”

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."--Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}

Personality of the Holy Spirit.--We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.--Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {Ev 616.5}

"Evil had been accumulating for centuries, and could only be restrained and resisted by the mighty power of the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power."-10 Manuscript Releases, 63 (Letter 8, February 6, 1896; Series A, No. 10, 25; Testimonies to Ministers, 392,)


These verses tell us that the Holy Spirit is God and is eternal. If He is eternal, then He has no beginning, no end.

THE GODHEAD IS AN ETERNAL DIVINE HEAVENLY TRIO
Thus, the Godhead is composed of three eternal (no beginning, no end) Beings: The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit.

The eternal Godhead--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost--is involved in the action required to make assurance to the human agent, . . . confederating the heavenly powers with the human that man may become, through heavenly efficiency, partakers of the divine nature and workers together with Christ." {UL 148.4}

THE GODHEAD IS COMPOSED OF THREE SEPARATE, DISTINCT, ETERNAL BEINGS

Matthew 3:16,17: “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven (the Father), saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

In this scripture we see Jesus on the Earth itself, the Holy Spirit in the sky above the earth, and the Father in Heaven above both the earth and sky. The Bible shows us three distinct Beings.

1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

According to their office, the Father does things that the Son does not do, and visa versa. The Holy Spirit does things that neither the Father nor the Son do. Yet all three are in “one accord” and we need all three for our salvation.

Isaiah 48:16: “Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent Me.”

2Sa 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.
2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.


In these verses the Godhead or the Heavenly Trio is clearly seen in the Old Testament. But they are more clearly seen in the NT as the next four verses show:

2 Corinthians 13:14: “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.”

1 Peter 1:2: “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

Matt. 28:19: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”

Austalasian Conference Record 7/10/1907
The Three Powers of the Godhead, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are pledged to be their strength and their efficiency in their new life in Christ Jesus.

"Baptized into the threefold name . . at the very entrance of their Christian life . . the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, powers infinite and omniscient, receive those who truly enter into covenant relation with God. They are present at every baptism."—6 Bible Commentary, 1075.

"There are Three Living Persons in the heavenly TRIO." Bible Teacher 1/03/1906

"There are three living Persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers—The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—Those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ."—Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, 63. (Evangelism, 615.


The Godhead is composed of three eternal separate, DISTINCT Beings or Persons each with independent self consciousness.

“The unity that exists between Christ and His disciples does not destroy the personality of either. They are one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person. It is thus that God and Christ are one.” Ministry of Healing, 422.

The word for “God” is “Elohiym,” Which means “Gods” plural. The word for “one” is the Hebrew, “echad,” which means a oneness in unity. It is the same unity as is seen in Genesis 2:24: “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.”

When the Bible says that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are “one”, and when Jesus says that “I and My Father are one,” it simply means that they are perfectly united–each is willing to give themselves totally to save us from sin. All heaven is poured out in the plan of salvation. They are so like each other in their purpose, character, and love, that Jesus could say, “He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father.” Jn. 14:9. Their heart is the same. And They work to change man from the heart.

Matt. 27:46: “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, ‘My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?’” If separation between the Father and the Son is impossible as the Catholic Trinity doctrine teaches, what happened here?

Matthew 12:32: “Whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him…”

This would not be true if they were both the same God, but they are distinct Beings with different responsibilities in the plan of salvation.

John 14:1: “Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. “ There are two distinct divine Beings here to believe in.

Indwelling the believer, the Holy Spirit–the 3rd Person of the Godhead–gives the power of grace to believe.

Matthew 26:39: “And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”
God had a will, and Jesus had a will. They were two separate distinct Beings.

Philippians. 2:6: “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”

Jesus was in the form of God, and was equal to God the Father.

Romans 15:16: “That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.”

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit work together to save us.

“There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers–the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit–those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will cooperate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.” (Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp.62,63.) Evangelism, p.614,615.


“The eternal heavenly dignitaries–God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit–arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy… would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.” (Manuscript 145, 1901) Evangelism, p. 616.


“The word of salvation is not a small matter, but so vast that the highest authorities are taken hold of by the expressed faith of the human agent. The eternal Godhead–the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost–is involved in the action required to make assurance to the human agent.” Upward Look, p.148.

“In the great closing work we shall meet with perplexities that we know not how to deal with, but let us not forget that the three great powers of heaven are working, that a divine hand is on the wheel, and that God will bring His purposes to pass.” (Manuscript 118, 1902) Evangelism, p.65

“When you gave yourself to Christ, you made a pledge in the presence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit–the three great personal Dignitaries of heaven.” 7 Bible Commentary, p.959; Sons and Daughters of God, p.351.

Concerning Jesus:

[color=#008000][b] “The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father.” Review & Herald, April 5, 1906.

“He is the Eternal, self-existent Son.” Evangelism, p. 615


Concerning the Holy Spirit:

“We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a Person as God is a Person, is walking through these grounds.” Evangelism, p. 616

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617}

.
THE ABOVE IS NOT THE CATHOLIC TRINITY which is is a different concept about God. I hope now that you can understand my beliefs on the Godhead.

Twoedged.

[Guest]

Dear Twoedged,
Praise the Lord! At last you have written in a way that is comprehensible to me. It may be difficult to communicate with people on my lower level of understanding. I simply do not have the courage to go beyond the very words of Scripture in defining God, realizing that at His name, as Ellen White says, the angels veil their faces in reverence.
I find nothing in this last letter of yours that conflicts with early Adventist belief or with the Spirit of Prophecy. The belief you express here is consistent with what I have read from those early sources.
I would disagree with your evaluation of the words Elohim and echad, but that is merely an academic issue.
Thank you for explaining your position in regard to the Trinity.

[webjcpm]

I admire your desire to use sister white in your post. Dear friend it seems a proper Biblical explanation is in order. If we turn to our Bibles we will find in the beginning elohim created the heavens and the earth. This word Elohim is Hebrew. It is also a plural concept. The word we translate as God should actually read in the beginning Gods created the heavens and the earth. This is futher shown in the making of man. Let us make man in our image. "Us" and "Our" are actually plural. We often times think of the word God as all important, but what is important is who the word repersents. Let us look at it another way. What if the word God were a title. Like Presendent. Then the concept of three title holders would make since. Like if you look at the prison systems. There are over 200,000 inmates in the state of California. If the state wants to change a rule that applys to all 200,000 inamtes it dose by adressing the Law with the title inmates. Like all inmates will be in bed by 9:00pm. If they want to get personal then they address individual inamtes by useing what they refer to as an inmate number. So there is a designation before the title inmate. The same seems to hold true when you read the Bible. In many places it is written the Lord God. Or in Hebrew it would read adoni elohim. There is a desiganation before the title. Thats why we see the distinction in sister whites writtings. She held comunion with them she would know. If anyone, she would know. If you want to look into this further you may look at our BIble Studies www.jcpm.com. Plese let me know what you think of all this.

[Guest]

Dear Jeff,
This thread was supposed to examine Ellen White's references to the Godhead and the Trinity. So a proper Biblical explanation should be found in another place. But since you wrote here, and ask what others think, I'll say a few words.
You note:
"If we turn to our Bibles we will find in the beginning elohim created the heavens and the earth. This word Elohim is Hebrew. It is also a plural concept. The word we translate as God should actually read in the beginning Gods created the heavens and the earth."
While it is true that the ending -im in Hebrew is often a sign of the plural, and the word elohim is often used as a plural in reference to false gods, the word Elohim in Genesis 1:1 is not plural. We can see that clearly by the second word in the Hebrew text, which is bara' and means "he created". The literal meaning of the text is "In-beginning, he created, Elohim (did), ..." There is no way to get a plural meaning from the text, because, unlike in English, "HE created" is stated in the text.
Can you explain how generations of Jews have read Genesis 1:1 publicly in Sabbath worship every year at Rosh Hashanah, heard the Hebrew words and understood them, and never realized that Elohim "is a plural concept?"
But there is another problem. If Elohim as applied to the Creator in Genesis 1:1 is a plural concept, then it does not support the doctrine of the Trinity at all. The doctrine of the Trinity maintains that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One God, and furthermore, they are of "one substance" or consubstantial. If the word Elohim is a plural concept, if rather supports polytheism than the doctrine of the Trinity. If you use the word Elohim as a plural concept and try to give evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity thereby, you only discredit the doctrine of the Trinity. That is why bona fide Trinitarian scholars never do that.
Trinitarian scholars maintain that the Tanakh or Old Testament reveals the oneness of God, but that revelation is progressive. The Trinity was revealed only after the incarnation. They do not try to force the Hebrew text to teach the Trinity. There are older commentators, such as Adam Clarke, who do that, but no modern Trinitarian scholar worth his academic degree is going to do such a thing.
Some secular or liberal scholars believe in cultural evolution and consider that the Tanakh shows primitive polytheism, the belief in many gods. At a certain point, worship of one god, a family god, crowded out the worship of his rivals and monolatry appeared. It was a simple step to develop from the worship of one god among many, to the belief that only one God exists. This belief evolved, during the third century, into the belief in the Trinity, which was formulated in the council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. It's all a matter of evolution of belief.
What happened in Nicaea was the imposition of imperial power on Christians in matters of belief. Constantine determined to establish a unified belief in order to strengthen the imperial power. In order to do that, he and the council set out to define God. That blasphemous sacrelege remains the character of all attempts to create a creedal church. We do not have the right to define God. We have the duty to believe in God, hear His revelation in the Bible, and obey Him unto salvation. We are not here to obey the Roman emperor (or his successor the Pope) or to participate in his Trinitarian conflicts. We are here to obey God and to live in the faith of Christ Jesus.