Salvation

[Guest]

Thomas,

The Sabbath is a restriction imposed by a Jewish government. It was put in place by Jewish men in the days when they ruled their land. Break it, and end up dead or in jail was their rule.

Num 15:32 While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day.
Num 15:33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation.
Num 15:34 They put him in custody, because it had not been made clear what should be done to him.
Num 15:35 And the LORD said to Moses, "The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp."
Num 15:36 And all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Here's a guy that was just picking up sticks on the Sabbath and they put him to death....

But in Jesus' day, Jesus seemed to think differently about such an action....

Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat.
Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, "Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath."
Mat 12:3 He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him:
Mat 12:4 how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5 Or have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless?
Mat 12:6 I tell you, something greater than the temple is here.
Mat 12:7 And if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath."

It seems that Jesus doesn't follow the same standard of thinking that the account in Numbers gives us. So why didn't the man picking up sticks think to mention the priests in the temple? Could he have reasoned with the God of Moses in the same way?

Gordon

[Guest]

Dear Gordon,
There is a problem with your reasoning here. You give no basis for your appeal to the Bible as historical evidence for your claim that the Sabbath is a human, Jewish institution. Secondly, while accepting the Bible as historical evidence, you reject that evidence as such, for the Bible makes the claim that the Sabbath is a divine, rather than a Jewish institution. Your argument and your use of the text is therefore inconsistent.
You make a further error in debate, by refusing to deal with arguments that are presented to you. You merely present your own arguments, but never deal with the arguments that are presented to you. In other words, you are completely aggressive and never defensive. That strategy does not work in physical warfare, and it does not work in debate either. Since you never answer arguments that are presented to you, the reader must assume that you have no defense.
This is the fourth time I mention the Sabbath functioning as a limitation of human power. You have not once dealt with the one single argument for the Sabbath that I have presented. So the reader must assume that in this debate, in regard to the one, single argument I have made, you have no answer.
Given that you do not deal with the actual claims of the Bible, but with your assumption that the Sabbath is a Jewish institution, then why should you assume that Jesus would have to relate to the institution consistently with the law? The historical fact is that, despite the death sentence written into the Torah, we have little evidence of the death sentence for Sabbath-breaking ever being carried out under any Jewish regime. Jesus is therefore consistent with the historical manifestation of Jewish Sabbathism.
In other words, your criticism of Jesus is inconsistent. You insist that the Sabbath is an historic, human institution on one hand, and then demand that Jesus relate to it as a divine institution on the other, rather than conforming to the historical reality. You can't have it both ways. If the Sabbath is a Jewish institution evidenced by the Torah (which falsely attributes it to a mythical divine being), then Jesus is consistent with the origin of the Sabbath as you present it, by conforming to his historical matrix. The alternative is to admit the divine origin of the Sabbath, which you do not do, and then hold Jesus to the letter of the law. Which is it?

[Guest]

Thomas,

I find that you yourself are the one beating around the bush. I'm hitting the target argument right on key, exposing the inconsistency of Sabbath regulation in the bible. Moses in Numbers 15 stoned a man to death for a slight action in human work. Jesus plainly justified a similar action of his disciples in Matthew 12.

So here's a question for you:

Is it acceptable to God for us to pick up sticks/grains on the Sabbath or not? Should we be put to death as in Numbers 15, or should we resort to the priests who break it as Jesus did?

Gordon

[Guest]

Gordon dearest,
I'm not beating about the bush at all. I'm perfectly consistent is sticking to the literal sense of the ten commandments. The rest of the Bible is completely up for discussion, so far as I am concerned. You maintain your right not to respond to what I see, on the basis of the commandment, as the central issue of the Sabbath. Frankly, I'm not even interested in any other issue in regard to the Sabbath. The only value in it I see is the value stated in the commandment itself.
I simply will not be distracted from the Sabbath is a necessary and concrete factor in the rights of subordinates. The Sabbath of the commandment frees humankind from slavery. I do not deny that the Sabbath is subject to abuse, that was never my contention. Let us assume that the death sentence perpetrated by Moses for picking up sticks really was outrageous. Let us assume that the disciples of Jesus actually did break the Sabbath by "harvesting" grain. So what? That does not in the slightest degree diminish the value of the Sabbath as the defense of subordinates against the encroachment of employers, majistrates, rulers, parents, animal owners and others.

[Guest]

Jaisen,

Could you comment on the topic of the thread? How do you view the comparison of the Sabbath ordinances in Numbers 15 and with Jesus in Matthew 12? Do you deduce a comparative stance that could be offered in an inherently pragmatic view?

Once again, thank you for your kind remarks, I humbly accept your rebuke. I love you brother.

Thanks,

Gordon

[Einston]

Dear Gordon...

The man that picked up sticks was breaking the 4th commandment.

The deciples of Jesus ate some grains. Would it be wrong to eat on the sabbath? No. The 4th commandment is about resting. Not about eating. Some would say they were "harvesting". I think there is a huge difference between eating some grains and harvesting a field.

There would be nothing wrong for me to go into my garden on a sabbath, pick an apple from the tree and eat it. On the other hand, if i go out and pick all the apples from the tree then i'm not in line with scripture.

You also made mention of Ananias. What did he do? He kept back a few bucks. Is doing that deserving of death? No. The real problem was that in holding back a few bucks he lied to the Holy Spirit. The scripture is clear...

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44

So what then? Do we conclude that God is unjust? Let us remember that we are but dust of the earth and that the breath in our nostrills is not ours but God's. Do not the potter have power over the clay? Does God not know the end from the beginning? Shall we reason against Him? He speaks and it comes to pass. Who are we to question his Judgment? It is that spirit of satan that questions and quarrels about the authority of God. The Lord God is Creator and Maker of all things. For this reason do we worship Him. God is Love. Yet we do not comprehend what this means for all that we know is hatred, crime, death, and worldly lust.

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1 Cor 6:19

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Col 2:8

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man. Ecc 12:13